http://vimeo.com/20946491
What is basically saying, is that if you are criticized by anyone, even those in the church just take it a sign that you are on the right track. Never does ask his followers to listen and prayerfully consider that they should take the time to listen to what the critics have to say. Apparently, he considers his teaching to be infallible. There is no room for humility. Not only that, but those who speak out are being used by the devil.
I remember a time when he spoke about the church as the "ekklesia"; a place where there was room for debate and discussion and disagreement, just like the first century church. That message interested me. This one make me sad.
I seem to remember something about money changers in the temple....hmmmm
ReplyDeleteThe Seven Apostolic Spheres
C. Peter Wagner’s book The Church in the Workplace, which is an account of the marketplace transformation movement. This book is an attempt to justify a new role for the church co-mingling with the corporate business world, based on the newly concocted doctrines of C. Peter Wagner, George Otis, Ed Silvoso, Dennis Peacocke, and a host of other Latter Rain and Reconstructionist leaders."
"These seven spheres of influence will help us shape societies for Christ."
1. The home
2. The church
3. Schools
4. Government and politics
5. The media
6. Arts, entertainment, and sports7. Commerce, science, and technology
I really highly doubt this is what Christ had in mind.
Maiden
Is there a way we could have a dialogue about some of the issues that you mention? I attended this church for a short time, but I came to see several serious problems with the theology (Dominionism, for one)and many of the issues that are menioned in this blog.
DeleteI would appreciate the same opportunity. I too was connected with this church for a short time as a young person. I was too naive at the time to identify some of the things I now see. I can be reached at aflorczykowski@gmail.com
DeleteWhere is everybody?
ReplyDeleteRtf here
DeleteBusy busy weeks.
ReplyDeleteBut thinking about our CCK friends, and hoping they are OK. Praying for them and their children.
I know it can't be easy to live like that. The good times are so sweet (we all remember the sense of community, the love, the friends and fun).
It makes the other times sting so much worse, pulling away of the love, looks of condescension, shunning. The horrid part - is you are so close - you know their shortcomings, secrets and sins. You know their fears - you know they have no business pulling that with you. But you also know better than to use that like a whip and sting them back.
You KNOW you are not who they say you are. You know your God, and his profound love for you, and despite their bad behavior - you know he loves them too.
I influence in such a profoundly greater way than I ever did at that church. I was so consumed with how others perceived me, working on my 'perfect Christian (insert kingdom) life' and my 'perfect Christian family' Little time, or energy was left to reach out.
They have insulated themselves with their own school, their own neighborhoods, their own church, their own college, their social life, their sports team, in many cases - their job, and their church where those who are different are unwelcome.
Touching those who God wants them to touch, breaking bread, and walking is now a mission, and not a daily opportunity.
They look down on those not in their church, or masters commission - those who cannot recite the almost unintelligible mantras and colloquialisms they expect from the 'holy kingdom'. The verbiage is one developed that has meaning only to them. Relating scripture bites from unrelated passages to form a secret holy lingo, that sets the 'select' apart.
As I backed away, and watched who I had become vs. who God expected me to be. It's so shameful how highly I thought of myself, and how little I thought of others. Luckily for me, I left with all my pride intact and no scandals or drama under my belt.
No one would have any idea who I am - and in fact - would probably regard me quite positively.
And despite my negativity here - I KNOW the hearts of the many I left behind seek God, but He has been fashioned into something I do not recognize. I cannot see Him in the faces of their leaders anymore. I cannot see Him in how they treat their flock. His essence is fading in the midst of those who call out His name.
Maiden
Have you thought about opening up the comments and just actively screening them - the dialogue is pretty stilted, and slow because of the lag in getting your responses posted. Its just a thought. I think it would be way more helpful.
ReplyDeleteMaiden,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you separating the love and respect for the people from a hatred (a word fitting my attitude anyway) for the "New Apostles and Prophets" doctrines. I have seen to much personal destruction to feel less.
The many comments from the pulpit that imprint doubts on ones mind make healing difficult: "maybe my leaving did cause all this harm". Norm once said, and I closely paraphrase, that evidence of "us" being in the spirit was "that every family that left the church ended up in a horrible mess". But family "messes" don't suddenly manifest because one has stepped out from the protective covering of the church. They develop over time because somehow the seeds of the gospel message failed to take root in-spite of years spent in heart felt pleas and cooperation with "Gods New Thing".
And perhaps ironically and sadly one can never say good-bye, for "good-bye" without "authorities" blessing is a "sin" and the first step to perdition for you and those under your care.
I probably know you, Maiden and you at least someone in my family. The best,
Anonymous for now.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteFirst-time poster here; I attended CCK for over eight years as a single adult and find it cathartic to read many of the comments here (I'm deeply saddened by the alleged abuse but somehow it doesn't surprise me that much - I can only pray for all of those involved as I was not aware of any of it while attending).
After I moved to this area back in the 1990s, I spent a year trying to find a place to worship, and I was an hour late for the church that used to meet in the office park just to the north of CCK. I sat in the parking lot praying to God for direction, and then drove right by CCK and found that I was right on time for the service! So I do believe that God wanted me to be there, at least for a season (8 years, that's a pretty long one).
I, too, was troubled by the pastor-knows-all attitude (not to mention the nepotism and uncrackable inner circle, but that's another topic altogether), and after awhile could not reconcile it with God's Word.
Back to the topic of this post, the worship and adulation of christian superstars such as "bishop" Eddie Long and Dennis Peacocke in the church really, really bothered me. I found it so hypocritical, as I grew up Catholic (am not practicing now but still it is part of me as I accepted Christ as my savior while Catholic and received the gift of tongues there as well). The Catholic-bashing in CCK was strong at times, yet the idol worship of these superstars at CCK is far worse than how Catholics view the saints or any living clergy including the pope! To GOD be all the glory! We dare not risk angering God by giving unwarranted adulation to His servants (the angels in the bible stories made this very clear).
Man's religion, whether codified and practiced for millenia, or whether cooked up in a church janitor's basement a few decades ago, is always flawed, and usually in the same ways.
I have come to the conclusion that no church is perfect, if you are at one for very long you will find the flaws since every one is made up of and run by humans (supposedly guided by the Holy Spirit). With that said, however, I am afraid of what I see regarding many Eastside Christian churches - I'm sure that there are some good ones, but so many of them are wandering out in the desert, IMHO.
I can only say this: Pray every day; stay in His Word, and maintain holy relationships with your family and other believers. If not in a church, it may mean meeting weekly in your front room with a few other people - that's great! Seek out the truth, seek out like-minded believers, test the spirits as the Word directs us to. We are in the last days, and many wolves and false teachers roam among us.
Most of my friends from CCK have left (I run into them at stores and other places and find out that they are no longer going there as well). I, too, left without the pastor's blessing, and I was a member and had signed that letter stating that I would stay there unless the pastor felt God leading me elsewhere (don't do it, Jesus would never ask you to sign such a thing).
I harbor no ill will or anger toward the leadership or those still attending, but do pray for them that they will come to know a higher level of God's Truth, and to be able to see the false teachings there.
Peace for now, maybe I will post again later as I have so much else to say. I really do appreciate the honesty of other people who love Christ and have shared their hearts and feelings here (without judgement or condemnation, God will judge us all in the end) about their own experiences at CCK.
The most amazing thing is that God can use us flawed vessels (including pastors and churches) to accomplish His will; he uses all things towards His ends and His glory.
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteFamily eh, now I am curious.
Maiden
If any anonymous people want to contact me personally I will not reveal who you are on here. I would love to have a dialogue with you. I am a psychology major now getting close to receiving my Bachelors going onto Masters. The subject of abusive churches is something I am planning to write on and I cannot base my research on just my own experiences. Please feel free to contact me on facebook http://www.facebook.com/monica.stclair I would love to hear from you. I will keep all info confidential. Monica
ReplyDeleteNothing has changed in 30 years. My family and I attended Christ Church Northgate in the 80's. It was after I was saved and CCN was the first church I officially attended after salvation. After a few years I began to ask questions and soon I was in Jim Hammond's office... in trouble with the Pastor. After a few minutes of me expressing my concerns, I was told that "there are other churches in Seattle". It is funny 20 years later I happened to Google Christ Church just to see whats going on, because I did have some good friends there, and to my surprise... not much has changed.
ReplyDeleteUnaccountable leadership is one of the first signs of a toxic "church" and isn't pride a root sin?
ReplyDeleteHave you seen this website?
ReplyDeletehttp://bgbcsurvivors.blogspot.com/2012_02_01_archive.html
A lot of it sounds very familiar.
To this day Dec 15th 2013 , everything about CCK was exposed to the whole church by Jim Hammond today and everyone was shocked but me . My wife and I knew in the spirit what was going on , but wanted Jesus to reveal it His way for people to be touched by the reality of their lack of discernment . Now its time for The Holy Spirit to do what He does best [ open up blind mind/ eyes and build the church His way and help people forgive and move on. [matthew.frasca119@gmail.com
ReplyDeleteWhat happened on December 13th? What was revealed?
ReplyDeleteWe attended CCN in the 80's for about 6 months. One day, I started miscarrying my baby and four my 'sheparding group' came to the doctor's office (my OB also attended that church) to pray for me I thought. But actually they started interrogating me to confess the sexual sin in my life! Their premise was God was punishing me. I was devastated, not only losing a baby, but having my Christian brothers and sisters make accusations like that while I lay on the exam table. I remember saying to them, "Now I know how Job felt". I was young, naive, and knew nothing about cults and false teaching. We immediately left that church and only attended well-known denominations after that.
ReplyDeleteThat's horrible. I'm so sorry you went through that.
Delete