Why this blog?

A couple weeks ago, Norm decided to start blogging, a decision that he likely regrets. You see the comments start out very positive and were written by members of Christ Church Kirkland (CCK). However, after a few days, other people, especially former members, started looking at the blog and they started commenting.

So rather than trying to describe either Norm's posts or the comments, we are going to quote them all right here. I think you will understand both why Norm took down his blog and why we felt it necessary to start a new blog.

Here is one of Norm's posts:

Listed under: Leadership

Toxic Followship

As I sat through yet another meeting where the speaker waxed eloquent about the manner in which Pastor’s had “abused” the sheep, I thought is anyone ever going to call the sheep to repentance or suggest that perhaps there are some Pastor’s out there in need healing as well. I have no doubt much harm has been done in the name of leadership. I am sure it is harm that many followers need healing from, but “blanket apologies” for abusive pastor’s without ever inquiring as to what might have been the reason for the “pastoral treatment” is highly irresponsible. Let’s be honest, Pastor’s do not have the corner on sin. Prophets can be strange, intercessors can be weird and followers have been known to sin as well. In fact simple statistics would say for every Pastor there is at least 100 followers so the possibility of followship abuse is 100 to 1.

For every 1 abusive pastoral action there is the possibility (and the reality) for 100 abusive followship actions. Where are the meetings where the speakers call the followers to repentance and ask the leaders to come forward for healing? Who helps the Pastor heal from followers who just leave after years of investment with no explanation or even a simple “thank you?” What if Pastors just sent letters to followers and said “we decided to transfer your membership, don’t bother coming back.” Scores buy the books about toxic leadership, but would anyone buy a book about toxic followship? You would think a book about toxic followship would outsell a book about toxic leadership 100 to 1 simply because followers out number leaders 100 to 1. The problem is followers seem more ready to question the speck in their leader’s eye before they remove the beam in their own eye.

I am in no way condoning the abuse of the Pastoral role. The Word of God places an extremely high standard of conduct on the Pastor, a standard that should never be abused and if it does, it must be immediately repented of and corrected. However, the Word of God also puts a high standard of holiness on the follower. Much is said in the Word as to how followers are to obey, submit, respect and follow their leaders. When disobedient, unsubmitted, disrespectable “nonfollowers” get confronted by a leader, it is not healing that they need…it is repentance. The problem is, they will go to the church down the street and seek healing instead of seeking change. As the pattern goes, the new pastor will apologize for the perceived abuse, only for a accusation soon to be direct toward him…and so the story goes.

I have had the absolute joy of Pastoring the same Church for 24 years. I do not suffer from a toxic followship and I trust they do not have a toxic leadership. However the Body of Christ at large must recognize both can be equally destructive issues. If we are going to seek healing for the one we must be willing to repent from the both. Perhaps if we put away the pointing of the finger we can see the Kingdom come.

Here are the responses. You may want to read from the

bottom up, since the earliest comments are at the bottom.

Do Something Now
If there is even remotely speculation that babies-yes, I said babies- and children are being molested and abused then do you think the right response is to call out "gossip" and turn the other way like a coward, or to get to the bottom of this extraordinary accusation by going to the pastors and asking them directly, by asking your fellow sisters and brothers directly, by contacting the police and finding out that there have been multiple case filings against CCK. NOTHING can be done until the silent come forward and raise their heads high and tell the TRUTH. That is what will prevail in the end, but let's not wait any longer, while the possibility that children are being abused is still going on. There has proven to be a vicious cycle of lies going on in CCK starting with the top and working it's way down for decades. Children are being irreparably damaged psychologically and are growing up only to continue this disgusting act of pedophilia. It HAS to stop, Norm!! Dennis!! Kevin!! Simon!! You have broken the law! And, ultimately, failed to protect not just the adults in your congregation, but your CHILDREN, WHO TRUST YOU TO PROTECT THEM! Stop the extortion and come forward into the light.

Allow me to be Anonymous
Anonymous I only speak from first hand experience. No gossip or second hand hearsay. The sad part is that no matter what is said here or to the face of Norm and Marcy they choose to cover lies with more lies! No repentance, no attempt at an apology, not even a hint of possible remorse for the lives they have hurt and families they have destroyed.

For all his speeches and "sermons" about needing to forgive and bring people to repentance where is the walk? I hear the talk but I don’t see him walking out his own "truths" that he spews.

Do you see Norm even coming here to attempt to counter the claims made here? No. And why? Because the truth is what’s being reported and now in force the injured families are coming forward to show the hypocrisy that is Norm and Marcy Willis's life!

Anonymous
Matthew 18:
"15If your brother wrongs you, go and show him his fault, between you and him privately. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother.

16But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two others, so that every word may be confirmed and upheld by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

17If he pays no attention to them [refusing to listen and obey], tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a pagan and a tax collector."

- I have personally seen fellow members along with Pastor Norm and Marcy follow this in all my first hand interactions. All you who THINK you know everything that goes on and exactly how it should have been handled but are just speculators are so prideful to judge. Your gossiping of what you know not or little of is more destructive to Jesus' family than any sinful brother or sister that needs to be loved back into reality and freedom. If you know something first hand (eye witnessed) then by all means shout it from the roof tops if need be. Those of you salivating on the gossip and drama should be ashamed of yourselves. :)

Assumptions
It's amazing to me that you would assume that none of us have brought these issues to the leaders. Many

have tried total to them repeatedly and have not only hit brick walls, but were ripped apart for it.

its about time
I know this from first hand!

Me
Hey guys, Norm Finally decided to join the conversation... Welcome Norm...

Guest
The German people did some horrible things under Hitler's rule. However, we forgave them because they were misguided. Hitler? Not so much.

Guest
It looks like your flock is doing what they have been taught to "Shut-up and March". No one is responding to this.... Interesting NO ONE is coming to your defense. IT LOOKS LIKE FEAR IS WORKING AGAIN. Norm I can see your nostrils are flaring....

another voice who see's the abuse

I too am a former member of this "church". A better word would be called cult!! I witnessed the continual abuse of the pastor and his wife towards it's members. Marcy Willis has to be the most manipulative person I have ever know. Unfortunately, she is leading the church school with her religious fearful attitudes and implanting her religious fearful idea's in the minds of young children. I pity those children for the abuse they receive everyday having to listen to her constant dibble. Her whole intention is to make herself appear to be so religiously superior to everyone else and expect everyone to cater to her emotional need for attention. It was always the leaders pattern to never accept responsibility for their own sins because after all how could they continue to manipulate people if they were not religiously superior to the "others". Trust me, I witnessed this first hand for many years until I could not take it anymore and had to leave. It broke my heart because it required my family to leave behind many relationship we truly loved.

I watched how the congregation blindly followed Norm and Marcy thinking they were "doing God's will" while all along they were simply trying to obtain validation for themselves that they were so desperately seeking. They were like blind sheep trying to follow their shepherd and never questioning. Yet, I know everyone of those followers have a small voice telling them that what their leaders are telling them is wrong! But, the need for attention is so great and the fear of what would happen if they did leave, they ignore the voice. But, ask yourself this: perhaps that still small voice is the voice of the Holy Spirit. Maybe he is trying to tell you something.

My realization came one day when I realized that my life was not better off being a member of Christ Church. Instead I was depressed and miserable. I watched the abuse, but I tried to convince myself what I saw was not wrong, yet that still small voice would not leave me, and never let me find peace. I had let the leadership tell me they hear God better than I. I couldn't struggle one day longer living the lie. My freedom came the day I left. Every aspect of my life improved. I began living truth as God wanted me to. I felt like a ton of bricks that held me under for years was gone. I thank God everyday did not give up on me, and his persistence finally paid off. Don't get me wrong, do I think this is the only church to labor under the same demons? No, unfortunately it's infiltrated many churches in Christendom. Pastors need to go out into the real world and live the life their members live everyday. Get off your high horse Norm and Marcy. Quit thinking about building your own kingdom. Consider how your criticism of your church members feel after getting beat up everyday in the real world why you sit behind your safe little church walls, collecting the admiration of members, yet never giving back to them. Trust me, your protective world does not compare in any shape, form or way to what they go through struggling to make ends meet all the while you collect their tithes, take long vacations to exotic places paid for by your members, drive a luxury car paid for by the church while your church members drive beat up jalopies , live in a house paid for by the church, collect large "love offerings" every birthday, anniversary, and Christmas Holiday from the church members, while they struggle to pay their mortgages and put shoes on their children’s feet. I sickened every time I heard the Pastors talk about how hard it was to be a pastor. Have you considered how hard it is to wonder if you would have a job the next day because your company was facing another layoff? If you would be able to put another meal on the table for your family? Or how about work a 40 or more hour work week, and then still make all the meetings you demanded your congregation be at so they could listen to you get up and preach the same crap they had heard hundred time from you before so you could satisfy your desperate need for attention? Maybe if you would have listened to them when they came to you with their concerns rather than dismiss them and then find away to punish them later for disagreeing with you. Perhaps, if when the members came to you in confidence with their struggle had you helped them, rather than find ways to reject them because after all "they were not as religiously superior" as you were. After all, it is your job to pastor the flock. Had you done that, perhaps they would not have left without a word. Ask yourself why you are getting such a reaction to this blog? Could it be that people are just plain tired of hearing how it is being a pastor. Trust me, you have got it made. You have one fine gig going on! Living off the fears of others, while you sit back and enjoy the ride.

Guest
I can testify to this - it was a huge weight that was lifted when I finally worked up the courage to leave. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do, cause I knew I was going to pay a huge price for doing it. What followed was months of renewing my mind and scrubbing away my ideas of who God was. I literally had to start over and bury myself in scriptures trying to find trust and confidence in hearing God for myself.

That alone should tell you something - if you are scared to leave, then something is desperately wrong!! If you have to seek "counsel" for who you are to marry, where you are to work, where you are to live, where you are to serve, who is supposed to "disciple" you; then my friend, you are relying on MAN, not GOD to lead you.

Guest shocked, but not so shocked, it's about time!

I am shocked as well, with all the control in that church, It's amazing to me how long this has been up! But keep speaking out!! as long as it's up, the truth is FINALLY being revealed!!!

Ben

Exactly, Guest amazed...

James 4:17

Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.

By holding back, you are allowing hurting children from receiving the counseling and help they need, as well as leaving predators in place to hurt more people.

Guest amazed....

I am frankly shocked that Norm has left this Blog up so far....find me a positive comment about this church or of the things said to be going on behind the walls.

Unfortunately, they are just good stories to anyone reading. Unless these stories become truth with names and dates and actually incidents how will things change there? Honestly, if you have a story to post that can expose corruption and abuse especially of children then the blood so to speak is on you hands if you hold your tongue.

True Christians cannot sit an allow nothing to happen....

Ben

Oh, the tales I have heard come out of this church from former members that have escaped its clutch on them and their families. I am so sad for the people that have been so patterned to listen to the leadership and not rely on the intuition God has given them, that they blindly follow whatever their "Pastor" says, no matter how contrived, strange and theologically incorrect—or even against the law.

And this "poor me, I'm an abused pastor" garbage — the fall is coming, brother. It's going to be a whole lot worse in the near future for you.

I pray that the walls come tumbling down as soon as possible. There will be many innocent people hurt in the process, but, God's grace and power can heal that.

I know that Norm and the rest of the leadership will have distorted people's image and faith in God, but, still, He is bigger than these and justice will come.

Guest

I have nothing to say to this man that calls himself a pastor. But what I do want to do is encourage those of you that either are a victim or know the victims to please go to your local authorities and report these crimes! I understand that there is so much hurt that has come through all of this and you may not want to be exposed but this is all that the law would need! They would need a name and this could be what can bring this all to an end!! It will take courage!

I too am a former member of CCK. I know that even after you are gone you are still gone there are still those rules that hang over your head and you are living in fear of men. I want you to know that God is a mighty God of justice and he will stand behind His people. He will also stand behind His people who have been abused in the shadow of His name! There is healing that can come out of this pain along with a deeper love relationship with Jesus!!

I encourage you all to pray for the many friends that are still trapped in the lies that are within CCK. Pray that God will bring justice fast so that no more of their precious children are hurt. They are in a place of being blinded and your prayers or coming forward could be the biggest act of friendship they will ever see!!

Law Enforcement

Crimes should be reported to your local law enforcement authority for investigation. Victims can call their local police department to report criminal activity.

The Truth Can and Will Set You FREE!!!!

The victims are being "surrounded" by the 4 walls of this church and their parents. These crimes were reported, but the parents of the victims REFUSE to speak to the authorities because they believe it is the church's responsibility to be the law/counselor, etc. They don't believe their children need counseling, nor are they discussing this with their children. They themselves are not receiving ANY council from the leaders of this church. These people are still living in this community where perpetrator and victims are having to face one another 3 or more times a week because of all the meetings, soaking sessions, mandatory school meetings, etc. These parents are victims of control and manipulation themselves. What started almost 30 years ago with women in their 30's now, has continued to grow and propagate within the 4 walls. It's a beast that I believe, having been nipped in the bud and dealt with correctly 30 years ago by ABIDING BY THE LAWS OF THE LAND THAT WE ARE COMMANDED TO OBEY, this would not be rampant today! These are SERIOUS crimes! We are talking of sexual abuse that is so horrific and yet NOTHING was done to ANY of the perpetrators in these instances. There are so many secrets. So many lies. It IS time for repentance and confession. You talk of Toxic Followship Norm. How ironic.

Guest

I wonder how long norm will keep his blog. Hey Marcy when will you start one?

Let's get specific

Okay, let me be as specific as I can. I am not going to "name names," but I will share about some of the incidents that have taken place and how the church leadership at CCK has handled those incidents. There is a young man in CCK who has molested at least 4 children. He is walking free. The leadership has said, "Well, you can't just just turn people in." YES YOU CAN! AND YOU SHOULD HAVE! Instead, he was made to pay "restitution" to the families. Can you say "HUSH MONEY?"

What is very sad, is that this young man was molested by other young men in CCK when he was a kid. Those molesters were never reported either. Maybe if the church had handled things legally and gotten their victim the help he needed, he would not have become a child molester himself.

Another young man who grew up at CCK molested the son of his Master's Commission host family. He was kicked out of MC, but again, no legal action was taken. The young boy he molested was discovered to be molesting young girls a few years later. His mother was told that she should be glad that he was molesting girls instead of boys, because it was more normal!

How does Norm justify his illegal and dangerous cover-ups? Simple. He teaches that church government is higher than civil government. In other words, HE CLAIMS TO BE ABOVE THE LAW!!!

PLEASE NORM, SHOW US IN SCRIPTURE WHERE PASTORS ARE THE GIVEN AUTHORITY COVER-UP SERIOUS CRIMES?

Takes one to know one!

The scares you have given to the people who have grown up in your "church" will never go away. It is men like you that give Pastors a bad name. I have found a man who is a real Paster. He and his family give to the community. He is in the trenches, he will not ask anyone to do anything he would not do himself? Maybe you should pick up a rake sometime? When was the last time you helped someone? In the Kingdom of God you are nothing but a fat old man who has caused tremendous amounts of pain.

What do you have to say for yourself Norm? Do not stand behind scripture or speak in the name of God for your own personal gain.

Guest

It doesn't surprise me how many people know the dark secrets this church has, however I'm shocked that people would allow it to continue. Clearly the leadership has not hid things as well as they would have liked. I too am a former attendee of CCK, however it wasn't until long after I left that I discovered the depths of its toxicity. I have seen families torn apart, friends turn from God and it breaks my heart. For those of you who know first hand what is going on behind closed doors, I'm asking that you take advantage of this door Norm has opened for you and expose the secrets of this church. Let's stop eluding and start using specific examples of abuse, lies and hurt. I understand the fear and the courage it takes to speak up. However this is your chance to anonymously shed light on the truth. Let's not let another child be hurt - physically - emotionally - spiritually. Those are wounds that aren't easily mended and that leave scars that last a lifetime.

I too pray for the healing, protection and freedom for those who have been hurt.

guest

It sounds as if you are trying to rid yourself of the guilt of being a toxic leader and leading your "sheep" to be toxic followers. Shame on you.

Guest

I think it is very telling when I looked in you Faith, Hope and Love Categories there wasn't any. Guess you don't have any. Only bolgs on leadership and christianity.

Guest

What’s on my mind it asks….. I don’t know where to start, so I’ll just start by saying my love relationship with the Lord has never been stronger than it is today. Isn’t that what it’s about people? Not the religious dos and don’t that so many religious leaders want to continue to put on their congregations. Norm what you have successfully done at CCK is teach people to come to you and leadership for their acceptance. You don’t turn them to the Lord, you discourage and confuse people and cast dought on their personal relationship with Him. If you don’t agree with their decisions they must not be hearing right. This is NOT your place.

Second there are so many abuses that have occurred for so many years as those who have written before me have stated. I know that there mothers of children that have been time and time again abused in your church that want to leave. I’ve talked to them personally. But the husband won’t let them and they wont talk to the authorities because they live in constant fear of you and your wife. Norm money won’t buy silence forever.

Allow me to be anonymous

I just wonder about your statement of not having toxic leadership at your church. Do things such as slander, defamation, dismissals based on lies that are not fully investigated, and bribery not count under this category? Its true that you probably wouldn’t suffer from toxic fellowship due to the fact that the majority of your followers have become drones mindlessly repeating what ever flows from the pulpit. And this also goes to the majority of Christianity. I have meet countless people who claim Christianity as their religion and try to show me "truth", the only problem is that thanks to your schools teachings i have learned how to question their statements to see just how much they truly understand what they are saying. Unfortunately instead of being able to stand behind what they say they resort to "well my pastor said..."! Isn't Christianity supposed to be based on a personal relationship with Christ? Where instead of people running to their pastors for answers aren't they supposed to be asking God for the answers? It is truly disheartening to see statements from you trying to shift the focus from leaders who have abused their power and try to place it on the followers they are biblically commanded to shepherd and set an example for.

I found something very interesting when I was remembering my time at your "school" and it was a little humorous to me at the same time. I was assigned to read The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli. The book as you hopefully remember is about how to acquire power and then use it. The funny thing is that those that follow those steps that are presented in that book are described as being pragmatic, capable of lying to achieve personal gain, and more likely to persuade than be persuaded. Taking the humor a step further is that you have so many people blinded that you were able to show them the type of leaders you are and yet no one could truly see that. They still followed you blindly.

What has become of the church when the flock is so blinded and drenched in toxicity that they would rather run to you than to God? Where those that are supposed to care and protect them are willing to lie to their face in order to benefit themselves and their own personal goals?

Guest

What’s on my mind it asks….. I don’t know where to start, so I’ll just start by saying my love relationship with the Lord has never been stronger than it is today. Isn’t that what it’s about people? Not the religious do’s and don’t that so many religious leaders want to continue to put on their congregations. Norm what you have successfully done at CCK is teach people to come to you and leadership for their acceptance. You don’t turn them to the Lord, you discourage and confuse people and cast doubt on their personal relationship with Him. If you don’t agree with their decisions they must not be hearing right. This is NOT your place.

Second there are so many abuses that have occurred for so many years as those who have written before me have stated. I know that there mothers of children that have been time and time again abused in your church that want to leave. I’ve talked to them personally. But the husband won’t let them and they wont talk to the authorities because they live in constant fear of you and your wife. Norm money won’t buy silence forever.

Josh

After reading the first paragraph what crossed my mind was self pity. A sort of defensive "well what about me?" "what about all the people that hurt me and the people like me?"

well my sympathies, it must be difficult to see people you care about leave, it must be hard to live a daily life where when you sin or make a mistake it cost lives. However you chose it. You have my respect for doing so but you are not allowed to guilt trip others who have not by saying that they do not live up to the vows that you chose to take.

A few questions...

when a person leaves and you believe that it is repentance they need and not escape, where is your compassion for a soul turning from God? Where is your understanding that its not about you? Or is it that they are leaving for a very good reason, to protect their relationship with God?

You have, as you have said, been a pastor at your church for 24 years. You have undoubtedly had people in your church that were hurt by the errors or other pastors, have you touched their pain at all? Or rather have you let their pain touch you? Because I don’t understand how someone who has allowed that kind of hurt to touch them could write something like you have written here.

I can only conclude that, at least for the moment, you are not in touch with the hearts of your congregation and if people are leaving you might want to start there.

It also seems like you need to go to your peers, your fellow pastors and let out some of that hurt you feel, not healthy to hold that in.

I can only conclude that, at least for the moment, you are not in touch with the heats of your congregation and if people are leaving you might want to start there.

It also seems like you need to go to your peers, your fellow pastors and let out some of that hurt you feel, not healthy to hold that in.

Guest

I find it interesting that these comments seem to follow two paths, 1. Youth who follow blindly and usually end up hurt...if you need an example just look to Harvest Christian Fellowship. And 2. Adults who have served under someone that carries the same mantle as the "was" Pastor Apostle Steve Allen....its rings all to true and familiar for me....and it is sad because there" IS" some truth to all this or it just wouldn't be out there....and I cannot blindly be led again by men who build "their" kingdoms not Gods.

Norm, you will know who I am by what I am about to say....

First and foremost, who proof reads this garbage? Your grammar is worse than mine fool. I would suggest calling Cathy Gilbert next time.

This blog is a deflection to not only 24 years of mistakes and poor leadership, but many, many years prior. Your reasoning and logic is that of a buffoon. It also is hard to understand.

What on earth do you need healing from? Your life is gravy. You have a million dollar house, financed and paid for by non other than your sheep. You haven't worked in, as you said, 24 years, but still make a 6 figure income. You travel all year round on lavish business trips to Europe, the Americas and all over the United States. You have a following that would drink any type of Kool-Aid you tell them to drink...

Your last paragraph you say," I do not suffer from a toxic followship and I trust they do not have a toxic leadership." Come on Norm, you and I both know that isn't true. As the saying goes, if a lie is repeated enough times, even you Norm, will begin to believe your self. You can thank me later for my class and the fact I won't uncover the high levels of toxicity that reside in the four walls of your church, which you have been trying to keep covered up for years now. You would be wise to sell everything you have, recant, leave the country and serve your God...Oh, but wait, God has called you to your multimillion dollar business and to leave it would be a sin, right Norm? Even after Mumford, Basham, Prince, Baxtar, and Simpson all publicly admitted to the failure of the Shepherding Movement, men like Hamman, Peacock and yourself rebelled(which I find ironic and humorous) against your leaders at the time. This behavior only contradicts the very foundation on which your Authoritarian/Kingdom/ Ministries/Gospel/ International Business what ever you may call it, rest's

Another Guest

Thank you to those of you willing to speak out. Meg, let me ask you this, do you think that "parent abuse" is as common as "child abuse?" It is the one who claims authority who has the ability to abuse. If a pastor is supposed to be like a parent (which do not I think is biblical), isn't it a parent's goal for their child to become independent? Do you really want your children to never reach the point where they are able to make their own decisions? Does this seem healthy to you?

The scripture in Revelation 1:6 says that we are all "kings and priests." Why would you want someone to interpret the Bible for you? In 1 Timothy 2:5 makes it clear that Jesus is the only mediator between God and Man, NOT the pastor.

The decision to leave an abusive church is incredibly painful. It means giving up worrying what your friends think of you and doing what is right. It means that after years of praying for change, and speaking up, you are forced to leave or risk more abuse for you and your family. Those "years of investment" are usually years of "followers" being manipulated and used.

Abusive pastors should be thankful if they are not being sued rather than being upset that they didn't get thanked.

truth speaker

I don't even know where to begin here.... This is completely backward. Pastors are to demonstrate humility just as Christ demonstrated humility. I have never seen a Pastor at this church seek public forgiveness for abuse that they perpetrated on a member of their church. The abuse in this church is deep and wide and starts 30 years or more ago and continues to this day. The cover up of this abuse is deep and wide and continues to this day. Maybe that is why people leave without a word. When someone leaves an abusive relationship they run and hide and get as far away as possible. To all of you new members... run as fast as you can away from here! To all of you old members, if you don't know the abuse that has taken place under your nose it is because you have blindly followed these men out of fear. People, we are not talking about mean things being said as abuse... we are talking sexual, physical, emotional and worst of all, religious abuse!!! The kind of abuse that shakes a person to the core and alters their very existence. Thank you Jesus for those who have gotten away! Heal them, protect them, free them!!!

Meg - re-read your Bible... no where does the Bible liken the church leadership model to a family. They are different structures and different governments. A church has a set of Pastors and Elders... a family has a mother and father. No where are we asked or required to "obey" the Pastor as a "Father" and you are not covered if you blindly follow. Do you not know the story of the goats and sheep? Depart from me for I never knew you!! They were Christians!!! You are to "Obey" Father GOD! not your Father Pastor!

Guest

So who is the Pastor accountable to? It surely isn't his own church or his own followers. Who brings this correction to a leader? Or if when correction OR question is brought, is it only seen as rebellion, division, unforgiveness, resentment, "disobedient, unsubmitted, disrespectable 'nonfollowers' or maybe a "speck in their leader's eye before they remove the beam in their own eye"? The repentance & confrontation is always one sided when you belong to a congregation where the pastor's word is the be all and end all. It's a scary thing when followers put their entire trust and definition of how they see God through their pastor.

But finally, the gist of what I'm getting the point being made here is "If we are going to seek healing for the one we must be willing to repent from the both." So, as a leader you're saying, I'm not repenting for what abuse I may have caused on a follower, unless my followers admit they abused me first." Hmmm...not exactly something Christ demonstrated at the cross.

Matt

I thought that it was Jesus Christ who sets the standard not a human acting as a father. Sorry for the confusion but this blog post does not make a lot of sense to me.

Regarding the post by Meg, don't you think you should "hear" from the lord for yourself rather than trust someone else to hear for you? Just a thought.

Cheers

Meg Hart

A church is run like a family. The dad gives the standard to live by and the children have a choice to follow. If the children don't follow it doesn't go well with them. It's a principle, a kingdom way, a law. I know if I follow you as you hear the Lord I am a blessed follower of Christ. I am grateful for your leadership. Confrontation, discipline hurt but those trained by it reap the peaceable fruit of righteousness. Let all of us sheep out there stop complaining and start obeying. Thanks Pastor Norm

Courage not fear

No, Meg. That's just what you believe because of what your "father" has made you to believe. Or maybe

mother (a.k.a Miss Marcy-all hail?!). You are deceived, and sad and you need JESUS! Not CCK. Not

Miss Marcy. Not Norm Willis. You can try and try and try every day to please them, and it will NEVER

be enough! It's time to stop coming under this condemnation and find true freedom in Christ.

No more hiding. No more bondage.

Connie

living life with a high standard of holiness is the only option! Thanks for breakin' down the 100 to 1 ratio- so true!

David Shay

From a PK, thank you! Love the new blog, but the suit is freakin' me out a little bit.

jordan caballero

so well put pastor norm. i wish this could be read at every church and bible college. i have been guilty of "toxic followship" i am so grateful for repentance and great leaders.

Chris Moody

Wow! This is increbible and so true. We as followers have just as much responsibility to see the kingdom come as our leaders do.

Here is Norm's other post:

Local Church Chihuahua

Recently while flying home from an overseas trip I found myself captive by the movie that I am sure will prove to be the social documentary of the age, “Beverly Hills Chihuahua.” As I sat engrossed in the relatively well written and thoroughly engaging plot, I could not believe that all of what I was seeing was done for a dog…a Chihuahua none the less. Story lines were written, plots were developed, and millions of dollars no doubt were spent all for a movie about talking dogs. These were dogs that spent their days in doggy spas, dressed in designer clothing and even wore diamond studded Harry Winston jewelry.

As I watched the 5 over-pampered pooches laying on their chase lounges in their bikinis next to the pool, I couldn’t help but think of “American Christianity.” Those who were called of Jesus to take up their cross daily and follow after Christ instead live like “pampered pooches.” The life of the typical American Church looks more like a day spa than it does a training center. The self centered approach of most Christians puts then closer to the “edge of the pool” than it does the front lines of the battle. As the typical programs unfold with the needs of man being the center, one can’t help but wonder whatever happened to the focus of “In the Beginning God…” The centrality of Jesus Christ in general and the central purpose of the Church to make known the manifold wisdom of God have been all but lost. The typical “church going Christian” today lives as if they are the center of the universe and the Church exists to serve them. Any attempt to turn the center of the average church goers focus is met with threats to leave the church or with hold the tithe. I would suggest let them have their tithe…there is something weird about a tithing Chihuahua anyway.

It is due time that Jesus gets His Church back. It is time we turn in the padded cross for the old rugged cross. Jesus gave Ten Commandments not six. The tithe is 10% not 2%. In the beginning was God, not man. Jesus is the center of the universe—not you and most definitely not me. The Kingdom of God has no room for “pampered pooches,” only laid down lovers who take up their cross and follow Jesus daily.

Listed under: Christianity

Here are the comments. Again, you may want to read from the bottom up.

guest

To "Your Kidding Right" : it's called BRAINWASHING! Basically...watch the movie "The Village" There are a lot of those black boxes hiding all over in that place!

Start with your own family...

Ava just got a pair of Baby Uggs! She's ready to be a college girl at 2 yrs old with her Juicy outfit, True Religions and Baby Uggs now!

-Taken from Kyle Willis' twitter page on Nov 6th.

You're kidding, right?

I suppose asking if you have a mirror is a silly question...but do you? did you think of YOUR life at all while writing this?

Your church is so far from "Jesus' church", it's not even funny. He is probably disgusted by the entire display. The cars you drive, what you wear, and the way you have so boldly taken people's education into your own hands... As if MC wasn't robbing enough people, you have your "academies" for people to completely engross themselves into CCK--because that's what God wants, Christians never leaving their churches. And real education would mean people learning how to think for themselves...

I am so saddened by the people who agree with you--they look up to you, they think you have all the answers...because they don't have minds of their own anymore to question things and find the answers themselves.

guest

Yes, I am laughing at all of these replies. I remember the first and only time I visited your church at the urging of a friend. When I saw the car that was parked in the pastor's spot and then your wife drive away in her luxury sedan I couldn't believe it. I think that people who take on a role such as yours should humble himself and do something really extraordinary with the money that his flock give to the church. Should your church congregation tithe or spend their hard earned money to send their children to your "school" just so you can spend so much money to make yourself look good on the outside???

Shady is as Shady does

BTW, what's with the "pyramid" scam travel site you guys have set up on your home page of your "church" website? Is this a business or a church? I'm confused. YTB travel is shady, at best. How shocking that you would be a part? Shady, Shady, Shady!!! One more way for you to "rape" and pillage your members. You all can paste the link below and read for yourself.

http://www.examiner.com/x-3804-Baltimore-Family-Travel-Examiner~y2009m5d17-YTBs-Travel-Pryamid-Collapsing

Ironic, No?

Does any one find it "ironic" that the picture next to this blog of him and Marcy is obviously at some "lavish" local? Where's your rugged cross Norm?

Not to mention...

What about all of the slave labor you use to maintain your estate? Unpaid Master's Commission students punished for minor infractions by doing your yard work and housework on their only day off? Why hire help (even when you can afford it) when you have it for free?

Then you can criticize church members for not having their homes be "kingdom" enough -- those poor lowly congregants who work multiple jobs to keep their kids in Christ Church Academy. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

In fact, those MC students pay a lot of money for the privilege of mowing your lawn.

call it what it is

OH and hows that new $80K dollar car treating you these days? I mean really, there's nothing "pampered" about that! Did you know Norm, that 80K is more than my dad makes in a year? I am sure God is looking at you saying "Way to go son! That's a great use of My money". How's the watch and shoe collection coming along? And the designer suits, forgot about those. Are you finished yet with the continues remodeling jobs on your house? Does Marcy have enough 2 ft wide crown yet? Oh and are you sure your granddaughter has enough Juicy clothes, Sevens jeans, just to name a few? Are you sure the tithe isn't 20% instead of 10%? I mean really, your not getting enough of what you need. Oh and I won't even start on "laid down lovers". You must be laughing under your breath. You've had your fair share of those too, haven't you?!

truth speaker

Really.... I'm sorry but you Norm are the most pampered one of your entire congregation. Besides your wife maybe. How on earth do you say you are on the front lines? Was it not you who twittered a little while back about private planes, 100 acre ranches, shooting guns, and "talking" about discipleship, as what a Pastor does during the week!!!??? Give me a break! Seriously, the more you open your mouth the more of a hypocrite you reveal yourself to be. So by all means, keep blogging! Soon everyone will see you for who you really are... Little less than a modern day Pharisee!

Joyce Morrill

Thank you for being willing to bring heaven's heart to earth. Lord help us all to walk in that reality!

jordan caballero

thank you so much. this is a humbling message.