Matthew 12:1-5 (The Message)
By this time the crowd, unwieldy and stepping on each other's toes, numbered into the thousands. But Jesus' primary concern was his disciples. He said to them, "Watch yourselves carefully so you don't get contaminated with Pharisee yeast, Pharisee phoniness. You can't keep your true self hidden forever; before long you'll be exposed. You can't hide behind a religious mask forever; sooner or later the mask will slip and your true face will be known. You can't whisper one thing in private and preach the opposite in public; the day's coming when those whispers will be repeated all over town.
"I'm speaking to you as dear friends. Don't be bluffed into silence or insincerity by the threats of religious bullies. True, they can kill you, but then what can they do? There's nothing they can do to your soul, your core being. Save your fear for God, who holds your entire life—body and soul—in his hands."
This new Blog has come to my attention. It seems to have its orgin because of another Blog that was posted to the internet by Pastor Norm Willis of Christ Church Kirkland. I followed that Blog since its first posting and there seemed to be a growing storm of comments that did not hold that church or pastor in such great light.
ReplyDeleteThat Blog went through a screening it seems and all negative comments were removed only leaving the ones that praised him. Now it seems that the entire Blog has been removed with no comment as to why.
I would encourage all those who had posted to repost here and all those that have experienced situations along that same theme that grew out of Norms Blog to share freely here with not just good stories but examples and dates and names. But, I would preface this comment; make sure its not gossip but your personal expierences.
Truth is truth and slander is slander...make sure you speak truth and let any light shine on corruption and abuse you know of personlly.
God Bless and let the sweet sound of Free Speech ring from post to post!~ And may God keep all his children (Sheep) safe from those that hurt, abuse and control.
I went theretoo
DeleteTodd, that is exactly why this blog was created. I want to give people a chance to tell what they know. As a former member, I know the kind of intimidation and that goes on there and I want to give people a chance speak up. BE BOLD AND COURAGEOUS! THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE! and maybe set some other people free along the way!
ReplyDeleteI went there for three years and was a youth group leader under the singles group leader
DeleteLet's see if you let me tell the truth
Deletei saved the comments from norm's blog before they were taken down. who can I send them to so that you can post them up for all to see.
ReplyDeletethanks.
Send em to me
DeleteSeriously, are you joking?? I was a former member of CCK as well. Quite frankly I think this how blog?!? what you are doing is indeed slander and viciousness, with a sugar coated smile on top. Would Jesus post a blog stirring up decsention amongst fellow church members. Because thats exactly what it looks like. Come on, be very careful with your motives for doing this, Jesus drew a line in the sand and asked he who is without sin throw the 1st stone. Becareful what stones you are about to throw. I HATE it when I see supposed Jesus lovers, memebers of the same family hurling abuse and malice and slander against one another... FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!! If you have a problem with CCK or individuals there, Have some courage, guts and BALLS and DO what Jesus said in Matthew... IF you are offended (Which you obviously are) go to the person and confront them. Don't stir up others by encouraging them to start talking trash. It's very cowardly and not something Jesus would do.
ReplyDeleteIf going to the person & confronting them had worked, this blog would not exist. It failed & only got them branded as troublemakers.
DeleteThis is not slander but the truth
DeleteI got raped, should I let the man go because I'm a sinner not casting the first stone. I guess that's why he got away. But I will not let cck get away with what they did to me including assault at which the police came and there is proof
DeleteChad, I respect your point of view, but you need to know that many of us have gone to the leaders of CCK repeatedly. All that happened was that we were belittled, had our motives and character attacked and were sometimes lied to.
ReplyDeleteNever were our concerns taken seriously or acted upon. We are all concerned about the people who are still there, especially the children. I don't think anyone involved in this thinks it's fun, but we have all gotten to the point where we feel that something has to done, and the pastors at CCK have made it abundantly clear that even after decades of destruction and abuse, they have no intention of making any meaningful changes.
I'm back and norm and then will never physically assault me again
DeleteChad, speaking from someone who repeatedly watched her parents respectfully go before leadership of a number of issues and go with other people (following Matthew) the results got us no where! While I can agree with not throwing slanderous remarks around, I also agree with Seeker that there should be a sounding board for people who are still suffering and need help and support. It took and has taken many families and individuals years to recover from the hurt, pain, and suffering of this church. And trust me, we did not sit back and let this happen. There was years of fighting for what we knew was right, but got us NO where! It was no longer worth fighting or arguing about. The health of our families and livelyhoods and ultimately relationship with God was not worth fighting about.
ReplyDeleteDo you know who I am
DeleteWait till norm and Marci hear me
DeleteWow...unfortunetly the pieces are all starting to come together after reading this...we have had our own abusive experience by a pastor that is a part of this fellowship and use to over see Men of Valor Ranch, that is no longer...Dennis Cole...we sent our son to Men of Valor ranch for healing and residential spiritual healing for over a year, and that pastor hurt our son and underminded our authority as parents ,by his strong arm twisting and abuse!It was un-believable!
ReplyDeleteWait till you hear my story
DeleteChad,
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that you are allowing yourself to be decieved. I know these allegations are beyond horrible and should be investigated. A couple years ago I told you what my experience was. When you told me you were going back I warned you to not be fooled. You assured me that you would not become pompous and religious. You told me things have changed but based on how you have changed it is apparant the leadership at CCK has not changed at all. If you want to defend people who speak curses and make no mistake telling someone they will fail in life if they leave is putting a curse on someone, then that is your business. These allegations are serious and I pray those who have been silenced will not be afraid to speak out. CCK is not God centered many of the doctrine there is based on man's interpretation of what they think the "law" should be in mans life. Jesus came to free of us the law and pay the price of our sins. So we could be FREE!!! I lost my faith for years because of the the things I experienced at CCK. I tried to go to the leaders but I was told I was wrong and that if I did not obey them and I left, my life would be meaningless and would go down hill. You know what went through my head when I got raped after leaving CCK? I deserve this because I left. They were right about me. By the grace of God I have seen the truth. Now reading other peoples experience I know I am not alone. This is not slander, who is casting stones? Truth is not slander Chad and for to long people have been silent in their misery. You know what I prayed for CCK after I left? Dear God, please let the pain stop and truth be revieled. This blog is the answer to mine and I am sure many others prayers.
Monica
I wasn't the one to disfellowship
DeleteChad, you are forgetting the rest of Matthew 18 which says that if after going to the person and they do not listen bring two or more...this is the two or more. No one WANTS to write on here...we do it because we care more about those friends we consider family than we do ourselves. I agree that slander should be avoided. We should do things respectfully, however, telling the truth is the RIGHT thing to do. I appreciate you and your comment, however, you don't know fist hand what has gone on. If I were you I would search out the truth and not just take things at face value.
ReplyDeleteI am going to tell the truth about all of them
Delete"God didn't bring you to CCK to change us." -- Norm Willis
ReplyDeletehaha.."But he did bring you here for cck to change you"...GOD...
ReplyDeleteChad- Your note and comment is the one that sounds angry. We our family and 5 other families all left CCK in 1993...we prayed, went to ALL leaders had meeting etc...it did NO good nothing was heard. Once we all felt the lord telling us to leave, they had a all church meeting to shun us all...and have NO contact. Once you join ( you are truly curst when you leave, this is all 100% true) even confirmed by a few other churches in the area. This is why CCK is NOT apart of the family of churches...Overlake, eastside, city church all the churches are one, except them. The pillars built and the church sits on a hill of its own...SO SAD.
ReplyDeleteIm glad this site is up and running the hypocrasy of CCK's leadership must be exposed for what it truly is. My family still is feeling the reprocutions of being cribed, slandered, defamed, and kicked out for lies that werent fully investigated. The story told to the church as to our leaving was a lie told to the face of the church for fear that if the truth were known a church split would occur.
ReplyDeleteThanks to Marcy Willis and the death grip she has on Norm's balls my father was declared a blasfamer and kicked from the church. Then bribed to continue to show up so that questions wouldnt be raised as to his immediate departure. Then when a job opportunity arouse for him Norm called the church willing to hire him and slandered my father's name to the point that the church refused to hire my father.
Talk about a toxic leadership!
Belly up to the barnettes
DeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI want to tell you something. I am pretty sure I know who you are and since you did not reveal your name I will respect that. Your father was my first youth group leader. He truly showed me what a good father and leader are. Worship was wonderful and he was anointed. I spent many years under his guidance and still hold him in the highest esteem. What I want to tell you is about a dream I had. A few years after I left the church I had a dream that another person who was involved in worship came to me and shook me saying "Monica you have to come back!!!!!" I asked why. This person was terribly upset and with much fear, concern desperation she said to me "Worship is dead!!!!!” I kid you not the very next day my mother called to tell me what happened to your father. That he was forced to step down. For a disagreement with Marcy. When I found this out I knew that it was a dream from God. Last year I visited CCK. Norm did not speak it was Pater McCuen. The McCuens were like family most of my life. The word he preached was good and biblically based. However, the worship was in fact dead to me. It did not feel annointed at all. The songs were strange and as Emily mentioned in a previous post felt like chanting. I do want to say that it amazes me that God can still work on people in the environment. I asked for prayer for some health problems I was having and I received healing but that I believe was due to the fact it says "by my stripes you are healed" It has nothing to do with who prayed for me. I was limited in what I told them and the pastors who prayed for me are about the only pastors left there that I have limited respect for. I hope your family continues to heal. This blog is necessary to help others come forward and I am so pleased that you did. I hope you are doing well. Please send your family my love and please share this dream with your father.
Your wife left you
DeleteI can't wait to read everything everyone is saying about these money hungry get power mongers
DeleteHey guys, there's some truth found in just about everyone's posts. Chad has found a home and at this time it seems to be the right fit for him. I'm sure that he knows darn well that the way to Heaven isn't man-Norm-Jesus-God. And truth be told, we all answer only to Christ and if Chad believes he needs to be in a strict environment in this chapter of his life, that is his choice. We are all given that free-will by God.
ReplyDeleteI am a very close relative to one of the senior leaders and go as far back as the mid 70's with CC. I have never had a good feeling about the leadership of Christ Church. In 2008 I pulled my family from CC as my kids weren't showing the necessary intrest in church and I hadn't been "fed" in years. It was very difficult and scary to cut that umbilical cord as I was born into the CC family. As I write this, my wife and I feel more free than ever. We volunteer at our church and there is unrest in our house if the kids don't get to go to youth group on Wed. nights. We don't feel obligated to the church but rather it's a sense of worship and giving of our time to God.
I could go on and give very explicite examples of where I feel CC has failed. Doing that would be like Jesus telling everyone the life details of the woman at the well. He wouldn't do that and I won't.
As I researched my own feelings and called people from the past, I was advised to just walk away and not try to fight it. A wise man said CC is like a tar-baby, the more you fight the more stuck you become.
It is nice to know there are people that share my feelings. If we all believe that we stand true and faithfull to the One True God, let us all pray for those that have yet to see the light. God can work in incredible ways and there is no doubt people have been truely touched and healed within the walls of CC.
I'm Nancy and my daughter is Heather
DeleteThis means you know me
DeleteI died the day they did fellowshipped me without what the were talking about. They said I was unteachable, unsubmissive, ungrateful
DeleteNot one example except they said I was not in good
DeleteAll hail Queen Marcy.
ReplyDeleteShe can think that apples are oranges, and you better belive her or your in sin and need to repent. She can never do anything wrong because she is God's best friend. His righthand woman.
When God needs to pass word he goes straight to Marcy because she can handle it. Why bother talking to you church members when he can just talk to her. Right?
Oh, and if your a kid....everything you do is wrong and disrespectful. "you sneezed while I was talking? how dare you...redslip." "im pissed at your mom so you must be in sin too."
Apparently she is the perfect christian. Oh wait, I thought we were ALL sinners. Nope, I was wrong.
Wait till my story comes out
DeleteYou know how to stop Queen Marcy. Don't give her money.
DeleteWow!! This site is very sad to me. I'm thinking, who do you really think our enemy is? It certainly isn't Norm or Marcy Willis. Nor any of the CCK leaders. Truth is a funny thing. I think for most it boils down to personal experience. Then if you factor in communication, let alone poor communication and how misunderstandings can occur, well frankly everyones perspective becomes something of a truth. Yet, God's word says that Jesus is the truth. Therefore, the real truth is not necessarily your experience good or bad, not your own experience translated through your own grid, but a person. The person of Jesus Christ. God hates sowing discord among the brethren. If we experience abuse, why don't we suffer ourselves to be defrauded as God's word suggests? Why don't we let God change that thing in us that makes us think WE now have the truth. Humility is the answer and brings us God's favor. He resists the proud who think they know it all, whoever that is.
ReplyDeleteEric sister pregnant out of wedlock
DeleteI can not believe the anonymous person above me just said "If we experience abuse, why don't we suffer ourselves to be defrauded as God's word suggests?" Based on that comment I would have to wonder if you have ever suffered real abuse... physical, spiritual, emotional. Not simply someon being mean to you.
ReplyDeleteGod does hate sowing discord among the brethren but you know what else he hates? Abuse against those that can not defend themselves... If a child has been abused at the hands of someone in this congregation or the leadership and the leadership has done nothing, their sin is much greater than "sowing discord" as you put it or as it more clearly is, testimony of the sin of this leadership that they have not repented for. True, some here are using this as a forum to vent but clearly they have not gotten to a place of total forgiveness. Hopefully, one day they will because it will only heal them to do so. WE are commanded to speak for those who can not speak for themselves and defend the defenseless! I agree that Norm or Marcy is not our "direct enemy" BUT when they engage in doing the enemies biding it is OUR responsibility to speak up! . Norm is the "decedent" of Jim Hamann and these men have caused more devastation to people's lives than this website could ever cause.
I suggest you use your "truth" for some good and go and confront the perpetrators of this abuse. Because Jesus is the truth, and he set the example of speaking against the pharisees, we here are speaking out against the "pharisees" of our day. Speaking the truth, and those things that line up or do not line up with that truth, based on your experiences, is exactly the process of growing in the knowledge and relationship of Jesus Christ. You can not poo-poo & discredit someone's experience & the truth they have learned from it because it is not your experience. I would hope that if you see the "battle" for what it is, you would pray that God would break the STRONGHOLD and FORTRESS that Norm, Marcy and the leaders with them and before them have allowed, through their sin and lack of repentance, to entangle those who have been and are still at this church.
30 years of abusing children MUST STOP, not to mention all of the other things they have said and done to injure people's perspective of and relationship with God. In the meantime I will speak for those who have no voice and I will defend the defenseless!
No worries I'm about to explode them
DeleteDear Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteHave you read all of the posts on this site? I agree that often it does break down to individual experience. However, leaders are in a special position and when they abuse their power it should be exposed. This is not just a bunch of people who have hurt feelings. Some do and some have moved past it. I know I forgave the leadership for what happened to me a long time ago. What broke my heart was hearing that the one thing I experienced has been continuing to others. That people are losing their faith in Christ. That they are being taught that their leaders hear God better than they do. I was brow beaten every week in church for most of my life. When questioned about how often I spent on my knees in prayer pushed aside because it was not enough, it was never enough. I nearly lost my life in that church. I know I lost my faith for years. You are right the only truth is Jesus Christ and he is the light that will shine and expose the secrets that have been covered in darkness for so long. In reading your post I have to ask if you are in favor of leaders handling issues of child abuse or should they work alongside the police to ensure justice is done for the victims? The Catholic Church covered their sin for so long and it was finally exposed. How many people need to suffer? How many people have to wear a coat of shame and feel they will never be good enough to receive God's love? Years after leaving CCK and getting away from the controlled environment it hit me as I was meditating on God’s word. He loves me just as I am!!!!! What a freedom came with that. Are you suggesting that perhaps child abuse and chastising people is the truth and God needs to change us to see that it is ok? I am truly trying to understand where you are coming from.
Nancy and heather
DeleteDear Monica,
ReplyDeleteThe word 'abuse' is used very uniformly and freely in this site. You ask if I am in favor of leaders handling issues of child abuse or should they work alongside the police to ensure justice is done for the victims. I guess it would depend on what "abuse" you speak of. Some would call child abuse, spanking your child for an act of defiance toward their parent. But, scripture would not. In this day and age of relativity, it is most difficult to define "abuse" appropriately. I really can't answer your question without knowing what abuse you are speaking of. Let me say, that I am in total agreement with you that God loves you just as you are! I know He showed how great His love is for all of us in that while we were yet sinners, He died for us. But, I do realize that He does not leave us just as we are. We are all born in sin and need a Savior for that very reason. He uses all manner of avenues to include various authorities: parents, government leaders, policemen, church leaders, etc. to assist in bringing us to a place of freedom from sin. I do not believe that child abuse (if it is truly abuse) is the truth and that God needs to change us to see it as ok. However, chastising is not abuse. Paul commanded Timothy to reprove, rebuke (point out faults), and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For a time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (wanting to hear certain pleasing ideas). I am very sorry to hear that you lost your faith for years after experiencing what you did. I have someone very close to me that was apart of another group along with me that went into bitterness for years after experiencing what they did. However, after many years they came to the same realization that I have come to about what God allows in our life. Joseph was a very good example of seeing the circumstances from God's perspective rather than our limited one. The outcome of Joseph's life and how he treated his "abusers" is a very good example of what I believe pleases God.
Dear Tina:
ReplyDeleteLet me respond to you. You wonder whether or not I have ever suffered real abuse given my comment on "suffering ourselves to be defrauded". Well, it would depend on the definition of abuse, and where our definitions might differ. I have never been physically abused. If anything it could have been spiritual or emotional abuse. However, because what could have been perceived as abuse was never allowed to be called that, and because in my time of pain I would not turn away but asked God for wisdom and what He was trying to show me, He answered me in Hebrews 12. Towards the beginning it says to lay aside every weight and the sin which does so easily beset you. To run the race that is set before you. To look unto Jesus and consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest you become weary and faint in your minds, that you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. It says chastening is not joyous at first but grievous; nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who allow it (are affected by it). Therefore, it says, lift up the hands that hang down and the feeble knees and make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame (something not working as it is intended to) be turned out of the way, (the way of the Lord) but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. It is because of this and what God allowed in my life that I actually have matured in ways I never would have. It is sin in our own lives that we all are at war against. Remember, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. The rebellion that begins with just a little twisting of God's words, that very thing which brings death and separates us from God. We are born in sin, which manifests itself in numerous ways. This is the thing that is 'lame' in us. When we yield to the sovereignty of God in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, (i.e. the ones in which He puts us) He is allowed to heal that 'lame' thing in us.
I realize that you have a passion to speak for those defenseless ones that you believe have been abused. You say that we are commanded to do this. May I ask where you find that in scripture? I am unaware of that being a command. You also suggest that I use my "truth" and go and confront the perpetrators of this abuse. If I was abused by these you speak of, I would. However, I have never been abused by them. I again do not see the scriptural precedence for doing this for someone else’s so called abuse. Could you show me where you find that in scripture? You must do what you believe is God's will for you, however, if the abuse is real and true, then those who have been the subjects of it should take it to the proper authorities and have it legally investigated. At no time, should any office whether governmental, parental, church or civil government be allowed to perpetrate true and real abuse without having it brought to justice.
Dear Tina:
ReplyDeleteLet me respond with one more thing. Please do not think I am poo-pooing and discrediting other peoples' experience or the 'truth' they have learned from it. I only state, that one's truth may not equate to "The Truth", given our propensity for self-centeredness. Even Jesus, after having just praised Peter for hearing from the Father that "He was the Christ, the Son of the living God", moments later rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me Satan, you are an offense to me: for you do not savor the things that be of God, but those that be of men." It would behoove us to question our "truth" to see if it really is "The Truth". I'm sure Peter didn't realize that what he was saying would be considered man-centered and an offense to Jesus. Nevertheless, it was.
Lastly, you say you are just following Jesus' example of speaking against the Pharisees and are in fact confronting those of our day. If in fact these you speak of are truly Pharisees, I could understand your conviction. However, from my perspective, I do not see them in the same way. This is where the 'truth' we seem to proclaim can get somewhat muddled given everyone’s individual perspective and perception. This sin that you lay to their claim must be substantiated and proven beyond a doubt in order for it to hold any sway. If there are real allegations that can hold up in a court of law, you will have the justice that you so desire for these victims that you speak of. Anything less would classify as not much different than what Jesus endured when he was falsely accused of so much and hated even by those who just a day before hailed him as King.
I realize that what I say may not seem sympathetic, but Jesus was never sympathetic. He was, however, compassionate and completely devoted to His Father's will which was not always the popular way. True compassion (from the word passion which means suffering and the prefix com (cum-with); showing intensive force – completely, together with) wants others to be freed from the real oppression of sin and the real oppressor, Satan. We can all thank Jesus, who in his compassion, suffered completely together with us and said, “In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Let's remember what the world is... the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life; and unfortunately, much of the tribulation we experience is due to our own sin, and/or our reaction to the sins of others.
I picked up the kids from Joshua house 2 years in a row
DeleteAnonymous -
ReplyDeleteSince you know who I am, but yet you want to cast your lot into this conversation without allowing those who read this to know who you are, I will go on the assumption that you are still involved in CCK. With that being said, I can understand your need to defend those you follow and believe are God's chosen leaders in your life. How troubling it is to come to the realization that those you have put all your faith and trust in have been leading a double life of sin. I remember how I felt when I too came to this realization. I was close with the Willis' and many others. I had to spend a lot of time working out my anger and choosing to forgive. Yet forgiveness is not a "get out of jail free" card. Responsibility is still in order. However, throwing verse after verse, much of which is unrelated to the issues present here, will not confuse those who see the truth about your leadership. I will give you verses below, in response to your questions, so that you can ponder on them.
These are reasons we as believers, not just the victims, are to confront and address sin in others, including leaders.
Sin that is ignored will corrupt the whole body - 1 Corinthians 5:6-7 “Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.” (NKJV) THE SEXUAL ABUSE "SIN" IN THIS CHURCH HAS BEEN IGNORED FOR OVER 30 YEARS AND HAS BEGUN TO CORRUPT THE WHOLE BODY!
Sinning brothers are to be disciplined - Matthew 18:15-17 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.” (NKJV) THE PERPETRATORS OF THIS ABUSE HAVE NEVER BEEN DISCIPLINED. SOME ARE LEADERS AND SOME ARE INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS. THE SIN HAS BEEN KEPT HIDDEN AND THE VICTIMS HUSHED. INDIVIDUALS HAVE GONE ALONE, AND WITH WITNESSES, AND NOW ARE "TELLING" IT TO THE CHURCH. SINCE THE LEADERSHIP IS INVOLVED, THE CHURCH IS NOT JUST PATORS BUT A BODY OF BELIEVERS.
Sinning Elders are to be rebuked - 1 Timothy 5:20 “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.” (NKJV) NORM IS AN ELDER! HE HAS NOT BEEN REBUKED FOR HIS SIN TOWARDS OTHERS WHICH INCLUDES PHYSICAL, SPIRITUAL, AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE.
Idol talkers and deceivers are to be rebuked - Titus 1:13 “This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,” (NKJV) NORM AND OTHER PAST AND PRESENT LEADERS OF THIS CHURCH HAVE SPENT YEARS DECEIVING THOSE WHO HAVE TRUSTED IN THEM. MANY PEOPLE'S TESTIMONY HERE, THAT DOESN'T DEAL WITH ABUSE, DEALS WITH DECEIT.
Sexual immorality IN PARTICULAR is to be confronted, exposed, judged and dealt with - 1 Corinthians 5:5 “deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (NKJV) IS IT NOT CONSIDERED SEXUAL IMMORALITY TO SEXUALLY ABUSE ANOTHER PERSON ESPECIALLY A CHILD!?
Turning a sinner from sin is commended - James 5:20 “let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” (NKJV) WE ARE COMMENDED FOR SPEAKING THE TRUTH ABOUT ANOTHER'S SIN WITH THE HOPE THAT IT WILL TURN THEM FROM THEIR WAYS AND SAVE THEM FROM HELL
Part 2
ReplyDeleteIsaiah the prophet spoke this to Jerusalem
In versus 2-4 it says "Heaven and earth, you're the jury. Listen to God's case" and it continues with God's words spoken through Isaiah to Jerusalem
Isaiah 1 : 13-17
"Quit your worship charades.
I can't stand your trivial religious games:
Monthly conferences, weekly Sabbaths, special meetings—
meetings, meetings, meetings—I can't stand one more!
Meetings for this, meetings for that. I hate them!
You've worn me out!
I'm sick of your religion, religion, religion,
while you go right on sinning.
When you put on your next prayer-performance,
I'll be looking the other way.
No matter how long or loud or often you pray,
I'll not be listening.
And do you know why? Because you've been tearing
people to pieces, and your hands are bloody.
Go home and wash up.
Clean up your act.
Sweep your lives clean of your evildoings
so I don't have to look at them any longer.
Say no to wrong.
Learn to do good.
Work for justice.
Help the down-and-out.
Stand up for the homeless.
Go to bat for the defenseless.
Does this passage above remind you of CCK? I grew up at Northgate and spent years at CCK and it sounds like the place I know all too well. Notice the last line. GO TO BAT FOR THE DEFENSELESS!
Here is another one that address what happens when the truth has been brought and the sin continues. I truly am afraid for what is in store for them unless they acknowledge their sin and turn from their ways. This verse is not just referring to pre salvation but shows what is worse... Once you know the truth and deliberately continue to sin.
Hebrews 10: 26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...
These verses deal specifically with children. What would cause children to sin... if they were abused and hated their abuser would that not be considered sin? Hate is a sin, is it not? If they were abused and never received help and then abused someone else, would that not be considered sin?
Luke 17:2
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Part 3
ReplyDeleteYou’ve spent so much of what you had to say trying to "talk" above me, with your long verses and definitions I would ask you to check your pride. The Bible says that if you do not have a child like faith you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Your “over the top” response would not be understood by anyone with a child like faith because it was overly complicated and drawn out. I know the "talk" of someone from CCK. The "talk" that implies they are better or know more than someone else and that is all your response represented.
A child who is sexually abused by leaders, would & will receive all of Jesus's sympathy, compassion, and vengeance. We are commanded to "obey the law of the land" and we are given charge to hold each other accountable. Abuse is a violation of our law and we are to hold each other accountable to that law as well as the laws of the Bible. The church is not immune to the law of the land. Our legal system is faulty, and that is why this abuse has continued, but I believe that God will open the door in the near future for justice to be enacted on behalf of all of the children who suffered abuse at the hands of these leaders or the members they protected and hid. Be sure, there are investigators working on this case on an ongoing basis. The file against CCK continues to grow and at some point, someone's testimony will "tip the scales" so to speak and justice will be served, if not here on earth than definitely in Heaven! And please, don't be deceived, you can not compare Jesus' persecution (who was blameless and perfect in all things) to wether or not our faulty legal system can come up with enough evidence to convict these men. Many a murderer has gotten off free for lack of evidence. It does not mean they did not commit murder. Does O.J. come to mind? Until then, I am responsible for what I know. I was there, I remember, and I will not be silenced. Until my friends can speak for themselves, I will not stop speaking on their behalf.
I havent read all the comments above, so forgive me if this goes slightly off topic.
ReplyDeleteBut once again, I too am a former member of this church. As a matter of fact, I was a member from the time I was born until I was 20 years old. I went to CCA from 2nd grade until graduation. I know the level of brainwashing and control that goes on in this church. You start out going to sunday school when you're real young. Then you start going to the academy. Then, if you're a good kid, you go to MCs. Then, if you're not sick of their shit by the end of THAT, they now have a "college" of arts that you can go to. Basically, you have no true understanding of the outside world, beyond what they tell you about it. Which is far from the truth obviously. Therefore, you have no way to really know what you believe about God, religion, the universe, anything really. All you know is what they told you is the truth, and if you question it, even just to get clarification, you are shot down as a rebellious dissenter, and hidden away so you don't "corrupt" the younger people. Reminds me of so many dictatorships, cults, horror movies, etc...its a wonder more people dont see it.
I really think that the leadership truly believes that what they teach is the ultimate truth. There's no room for discussion even. Throughout high-school, there were several points that made absolutely no sense to me, and I constantly tried to have a logical conversation with the leadership about my opinions, and what they thought about them. Well, I found what they thought of them at least. I felt like I was living on a Rush Limbaugh broadcast. "Me: 'Well what I think is...' Them: 'No! You're wrong, thats totally against what we believe! I think we may need to suspend you for a bit..." Yes I tried the whole Matthew 18 thing. And like so many who commented above, it didn't do one bit of good. Finally I got too sick of it, and left. HUGE culture shock. The outside world is NOTHING like what they say it is. Luckily I had a job in high-school, so I was somewhat prepared for it. I feel sorry for other young people who aren't so prepared.
One more side note, I did end up going back for a little bit at one point, just for the hell of it. I was shortly KICKED OUT of the church, for my "sins". Sins being: independent thought, questioning authority that claimed to be the only true mouth of God, etc. Question: Aren't churches supposed to help people? Especially people they believe to be in sin? WHY THE F*** WOULD A CHURCH KICK A SINNER OUT? Food for thought.
Just want to say your comment is the best comment I've read in this entire comments section. Best part "Why the %^&* would a church kick a sinner out.
DeleteTina,
ReplyDeleteI commend you for your research and speaking out. I agree with you completely and I was thinking the same as you that this person who speaks our names confronting us is a coward who hides behind anonymity. I continue to pray for those who are deceived and that justice will be done. If there is anything more I can do for the cause please do not hesitate to contact me.
If there is truly abuse of a sexual nature happening, it should be reported to the POLICE right away! Please encourage victims to share their stories with the POLICE. This is the ONLY way this abuse will be stopped! No more secrets! Don't even bother going to Norm or the Elders. The police will notify them for you, and the investigation will be conducted by PROFESSIONALS.
ReplyDeleteWishing all victims of sexual abuse peace and healing. Remember, your abuse in the hands of someone more powerful than you is NOT YOUR FAULT!
I am not the same "Anonymous" as above, and I am perplexed by his/her questioning of Tina. Do we really need scripture quoted to "prove" that it is right to defend the defenseless? Anyone with a compassionate heart knows that it is right to defend those who have been abused and can't defend themselves. Jesus stood with the defenseless, not the powerful.
ReplyDeleteI think people would do well to read Matt 23 when considering the leadership style at CCK. It seems to describe their model pretty clearly to me: heaping up religious commands that burden the people, not lifting a finger themselves, being all about appearances, leaders who desire the best seat of honor (HELLO), fine clothes, even the stuff about loving when people call them "Father". Hmmmm. Too bad CCK doesn't have a commitment to teach the WHOLE Bible and not just pick phrases that suit their "vision", or Norm might have to teach this section sometime. That would be interesting!
ReplyDeleteI was told to check out this blog as I try to bring objective insight to serious topics in debate. This is serious stuff. However, bringing objective viewpoints is what I do, so here it is.
ReplyDeleteThere are intentions of the heart that need to be evaluated by almost all of the writers whom I have read in the many threads. What is at the root of your zealous heart? Scripture is being tossed around for everyone’s own benefit is how I am reading all these sword fights. That would mean the leaders and the former attendees of this CCK church that is being talked about
First off, a couple of writers are correct, this alleged abuse issue is between the alleged abuser and the victim or victim's family. It sounded as if the law has been notified and that the response of the law was not agreeable with some of you, if not most of you. Why? Is it because you have latched onto someone else’s problem, and made it yours because one day, some time ago, one of this church’s leaders( or all of them) told you something you did not like or want to hear? If I was asked, I would say most of you are young adults who had been told ‘no’ at some point in your relationship with these leaders and you did not like ‘no’. And now that you caught wind of this alleged abuse, it is has become a fire starter to try to burn those you still hold a grudge against. If this insight is piercing your heart with sweet conviction, then may you quickly go before the God that you assert to have relationship with and be healed of the poison that runs through your veins. If this insight brings anger to you, then may you consider how truth, when spoken, and heard, can cause anger and bitterness because it cuts cross grain to something we have found joy in. If this is the case, then you too go quickly before the God that you assert to have relationship with and also be healed of the poison that runs through your veins too.
As for the one Seeker who is looking for this church’s leadership to engage in the blog, you sound like some of the trash talkers I watch on TV who badger and badger their opponent as their adversary remains still. I think that is found somewhere in the New Testament isn’t it? You too need to check your heart before your God as you have given hint to be a sincere believer too and find the answer to the question what is your intention of all of this?
As for the leaders of this CCK church, they too need to hear the pain and anguish in all of your voices and seek their God’s face for their heart’s intentions. If I get it right, all of you have the same God, so if that is the case, His answer to each and every one of you should be the same should it not?
The reality of ‘truth’ and ‘perspective’ was brought into the conversation. “Thank God” for that. The more each person is aware of how perspective is everything to the mind, but “truth” in Christianity is Jesus Christ, then the sooner you all will confess that there is only one place where ‘truth’ will found in the lives of the ‘believer’…and that is in relationship and communion with Christ Jesus. Now how in the world is that going to get you what you want in all this stuff, like revenge or justice for the abused, what ever you will try to call it? Help me remind all of you, writers and leaders, it is noted by Jesus that as you come to Him, The Truth, that the truth will set you free.
Now the only question you all have left to contend with after you have evaluated your intentions in all this stuff, is, “do I want to be free of the junk I have been carrying around caused by men and women who may not be perfect in all they do in the name of God?” If so, then let go and let God deal with all who do what they will do for self gratification. I think that is found in the Bible too…somewhere in the Book of Acts…Chapter 5 where a Pharisee named Gamaliel addresses the Sanhedrin.
I bring all this to you as one who watches for such events so as to get everyone who has an ear to hear to hear God’s call to come to Him, find peace in Him and let Him deal with your heart and the hearts of others.
9 mile Dancer - How do I know you are objective? You didn't identify yourself. Who asked you to check out this blog? YOU could very well be a long time member of CCK... How would that provide you with an objective view?
ReplyDeleteI read and re-read what you had to say... and I am not sure you understand what is taking place at all. You speak as if someone asked you to mediate this discussion and you have the answers we all need to hear. But really you just added your opinion... and that's just fine but it's not any better or any worse than any other person's opinion here. It's just that... an opinion. Unless, of course, you believe you are an authority on the issues being discussed. And I wouldn't know what authority you speak with because their is no identity. I assume you speak with the same authority as me, Jesus Christ. Which makes you no less or no more of an authority on the subject than I am.
The police are still investigating. Their plea, just as many of ours is, would be that victims would come forward and not live in fear of the response of their leaders to their coming forward. There has been no final decision by the police yet of which people could be disappointed with. It is an ongoing investigation. Not a closed case.
If you truly want to be an objective voice maybe you should put a name with that voice. Otherwise we as readers have no way to determine if you are truly objective or not.
I'm currious, why doesn't "Seeker" have anything more to say. I see Tina saying alot, but the author of this blog has fallen silent. What say you, "Seeker"?
ReplyDeleteThe whole point of creating a blog was to create a forum for people to speak out and debate after Norm shut down his blog, not so that I would have a platform. When I have something to say, I will.
ReplyDeleteTina,
ReplyDeleteI had not intended to address each writer and enter into a debate However, in reading your response to my writing, I am led to address your writings.
You have asked, “How do I know you are objective?” I should only be able to convince you by what I say, not who I am. Do I sound subjective to either side?
I do not know who you are either Tina. That is the beauty of it all and, it allows for the greater ability to stay objective wouldn’t you agree? To illustrate with the vernacular of politics, if someone is Red and they hear a comment by a Blue, and they know that person is a Blue, then, whatever the Blue has to say is of little value because of the Blue name association. AND thus, one of the great subjective issues that prevent bi partisanship and why “United We Stand” is no longer the reality 90% of the time.
You exclaimed: “YOU could very well be a long time member of CCK…” Do I sound like a long time member of CCK trying to support them?
Since you read my writing more than once, then I would ask that you consider posing the questions I had asked in a place of earnest prayer. Then, listen, with a humble heart that wants to know what God has for you in all this. Have you ever considered that in our zealous quest for what is just and right in the name of God that He is actually after us to bring our heart to Him so He can show us more about what we have yet to see about our heart’s intent in that matter?
You state: “But really you just added you opinion…” I believe I asked more questions than insert opinion. Yes, I did insert an opinion. That would be where I stated, ‘If I was asked,…” However, that did lead into contextual suggestive “answers” that I hope are applied in a prayerful seeking of the Holy Spirit’s voice to each individual’s intention(s).
You wondered: “…and I am not sure you understand what is taking place at all. ”What I know of the situation is what I have read. ( I started to list the many notes with in the pages, but in the end I had too many character to post, so I deleted the list. I will send it latter if you want me to)
You challenged me with: “…what authority you speak with…” (that sounds familiar???)
Authority is an interesting topic in and of itself. More so is the platform of speaking authoritatively in the name of Jesus Christ for we live but as in a mirror with so much more to know…until we see Him face to face. I caution anyone who tries to speak with the Authority of Jesus Christ on a specific topic…except that of the Gospel of Christ. I have made no declaration of authority, Tina. It would be my hope, as always, that what might be heard by the Spirit of Christ that rest within every seeking believer, would be prayerfully taken by the individual to Jesus himself for His Truth in it all. That would mean whatever is heard that sounds good, and especially that which sounds off track from The Word, and even better, that which really strikes a cord of displeasure within.
Now, I have addressed many of your questions, be they satisfying or not. I will hope that you and all readers, might consider trusting enough to pose some of the questions I have left here in this blog, and what feelings they have stirred up, before God with a an open and contrite heart to hear what He has to say to you. And then, in that Truth that He reveals to you, grow in the knowledge of Christ, and live in His peace.
Please note, I am not asking you, or anyone, to necessarily bring His answers to you to this blog. If you are led to, then may they edify the body of Christ.
OBJECTIVE: belonging to the object of thought rather than to the thinking subject.
PS: I hope you know that there is a difference between being objective and being led by Christ and that we would all seek for the higher calling of Christ in our lives and the lives of others. BIG DIFFERENCE.
9 mile dancer-
ReplyDeleteObjective was the term you chose to use... I know the difference.
I only posed the question of authority because you set yourself up as an authority on things when you said
"I was told to check out this blog as I try to bring objective insight to serious topics in debate. This is serious stuff. However, bringing objective viewpoints is what I do, so here it is." and
"I bring all this to you as one who watches for such events so as to get everyone who has an ear to hear to hear God’s call to come to Him, find peace in Him and let Him deal with your heart and the hearts of others."
You say "BRINGING OBJECTIVE VIEWPOINTS IS WHAT I DO" and "I BRING ALL THIS TO YOU AS ONE WHO WATCHES FOR SUCH EVENTS SO AS TO GET..."
Apparently you claim some sort of authority in these types of things.
My point was that I have no more authority than you and you have no more authority than I. If I speak with authority it is only because of Jesus Christ. Pretty sure that's biblical.
Like I said... I don't think you really know what is going on. If you can sit and think that those who have posted on this blog haven't prayerfully consider what they should do about the accusations made than you missed the larger point of this blog. This blog, it's accusations, it's truth, have been prayerfully considered for years. This is a forum to warn. What people do with that warning is up to them.
If I warned you not to jump off a cliff cause you would most likely get hurt and you chose to take the risk and jump, you could very well be hurt or not. That's the risk. My response to the knowledge of the dark secrets hiding in this church is to warn people not to risk it. I think that is the overall theme in what has been spoken. DON'T RISK IT!!! This is why one of the father's posted to take your kids and run from this place.
Those I know personally who have posted on this blog have taken their issues before the Lord and have asked him to show them what he has for them in it. Part of that for some of us is to be a voice of warning and reality. So your encouragement to take it before the Lord is great... but I think most people are already doing that. Which you would have noticed in the threads if you had understood.
So just to be clear for anyone reading this, I can only speak for myself, I have asked the Lord why and what he has for me in what I have been through in this church and the things I know have occurred. I continue to ask and learn with each new story that comes to light. I have dealt with my heart and continue to deal with it. I have asked him what I can do actively and if there is anything I should do. I am following through on what I have heard... WARN MY PEOPLE! Much of what the Bible has to say deals with warning God's people of the trouble around them, which included false prophets and wayward leaders. Anyone who reads this blog... consider it a warning and do with the information as you see fit!
Hi my name is Keith. I happened to see your blog by accident. I was a young adult pastor at Harvest Christian Fellowship when everything became a mess 10 years ago. all of the same accusations were made then that are being stated here. I lost alot of people I dearly loved.I know I did not walk perfectly through what happened there. So I wanted to encourage you to read a portion of a book by Rick Joyner that has a biblical response to what all of you are facing. The book is titled "Overcoming Racism". I would suggest reading from page 36 to the end of the book. When I was going through this I would have done anything to know how to properly deal with this. I would have lost alot less. My email address is keithadex@gmail.com.
ReplyDeleteSo where is this guy, "Pastor" Norm Willis? Does anybody know of his whereabouts as well as Jim Hamann, Lee Ray, Dennis Finch, Harold King, Richard Vicknair, Dennis Trout, Betty White, and Ed Hardy to start. These people were associated with Christ Church in Northgate. Any help in locating them would be appreciated.
ReplyDeleteI was there when they let that young man comes in and was gonna make him youth group leader but he wrecked norm and Marci van.
ReplyDeleteCck I never forgot and I am telling everything
ReplyDeleteSee the willises still there from woodenville
ReplyDeleteNo not the willises that's norm
ReplyDeleteI'm truth
ReplyDeleteHave you gone to their site? They are listed. They have not been formed guide 40 years. North gate maybe but not cck. They left north gate cuts norm wanted his own church. Ex heroin dealer should asked you to who he really is. They brought in the holy spirit movement from? And Marci dated wailing like a baby after norm told us to do it to orv their was something wrong with us
ReplyDeleteActn stupid. They brought the hoax in. Laughing crying roaring like a lion falling out lol
ReplyDeleteThis is during the time overland got caught playing with a police penis in a bathroom in Florida oops
ReplyDeleteWhether this site exposes these people or not I still will no matter what it takes
ReplyDeleteI can't wait to make them live on TV!
ReplyDeleteIf you think I can't think again. I have spent my life learning how to tell on cck!!! They are gonna wish they had not hurt me.
ReplyDeleteY r u satin overcome racism when cck is mostly racist?
ReplyDeleteI was there when Michael Sinclair started coming. They used my half black nephew to induce him to stay
ReplyDeleteWhat does everyone have to say now that CCK has fallen apart and is no more?
ReplyDelete